Why is TCS called BPS

Problem: The marshal thinks your planet marker is running on

CS, LV, GTEK, ETEK, ETHA, EGO, GEO
maani
Enlightened
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20.06.2016 15:30

PE Tech Support wrote:
maani wrote:Sustain 3.3
kick in 3.5

okay bug found. it was the user. and now?!

Got upset in vain?
uh no? you mention in deim the start post with not a single word that in deim example the user has messed with the settings. you make it up as if the marshall acted wrong in the case. and that is NOT true. the marshall acted absolutely right and did NOT let this gun on the field.

Something
Rec-Baller
Place of residence: Pinneberg
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20.06.2016 15:36

Do you still want to crack the 1000 posts today? There is still an editing function ... the thread is not necessarily clearer in the long run.

Just like that .. now men go on!

xgambitx
Part time asshole
Place of residence: Reichenbach
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20.06.2016 15:45

@Maani

I don't want to explain your job to you because I know you are doing your job properly and Stefan's post is certainly not an attack on marshals who do their job well.
We often have inquiries from league players who have been sent off the field on the grounds that the marker is running afterwards.
I try to explain the problem technically to you and the other people who may be interested.
We assume a proper trigger setting, that much should be clear.
the player triggers, the ramp sets in (10.3 bps in mille mode), maintenance rate 5 pulls per second. The board calculates the rate to be 10.3 bps, that is roughly 2 cycles per pull performed per second. When I've done the final pull, how should the board know if I'm at the beginning or at the end of the calculated cycle? Ideally, two balls follow (in mille mode). Things are different with the PSP.
But one thing is for sure ... in Mille or other ramp modes, more than one ball will definitely follow.

xgambitx
Part time asshole
Place of residence: Reichenbach
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20.06.2016 15:50

To add something ...
Most of those who told me about their problem with the marshals were sent off because the marker followed more than one ball. As you have correctly noticed, two balls are perfectly normal. And this is exactly what I mean by "understanding your job and knowing the technical background".

maani
Enlightened
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20.06.2016 15:53

ronny now we are together

I never said anything else. and that's how it says in the rules. after the last pull a maximum of 2 balls may come. just PFLOPP PFLOPP.

:skirt:

xgambitx
Part time asshole
Place of residence: Reichenbach
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20.06.2016 16:04

See ... and now the happy news only has to be passed on to the marshals, who they don't know yet.
But that's up to the leagues ... and when I sometimes see who's there on the pitch, it's no wonder that something like that happens and wrong decisions are made, not just when it comes to markers.
When I see marshals pounding the bottle from behind so that the gun shoots ... woooooooooooo!

h00bi
Advanced
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20.06.2016 18:41

But I also see it like Maani.
If I tell the TCs before the game day "10.5 max ROF and what is written on my Chrony applies" then I honestly don't care if the player explains to me that he has "blue on 7" (Dye) and that would only be 10.4 and my Chrony is going wrong. Then I will certainly not count any flashing lights on the gun. He can shoot over it again from me, but if my Chrony shows 10.6 this cannon does not go into the field because:

As a ref, I owe it to the paying players that I make sure that everyone is within the rules.

Where else should you draw the line? The next one comes up with 10.7 and then says "You had to play with 10.6 earlier because of the 0.1 bps". And so it is even if the cannon spits out 3-4 balls.

h00bi
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20.06.2016 21:12

There are also old guns that you can't cap down to 10.5. The only thing that helps is a new board.

KidStealth
Funding duuuuude
Place of residence: fifty sven town!
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20.06.2016 21:28

or stop cap10 ... you basically don't care anyway ;-)

maani
Enlightened
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21.06.2016 08:06

the joltigste thread in a long time xD

acim81
Rec-Baller
Place of residence: Upper ornament
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21.06.2016 09:24

maani wrote:LoL.
everything is clearly regulated. Extract from wpbo rules: (edit: same passage in epbf rules)
“Runaway Guns” test - All markers will be checked for “runaway” triggers. The marker will be fired
rapidly. The testing judge, while rapidly firing the marker will suddenly cease to pull the trigger.
Any marker that fires more than 1 additional shot after the final trigger activation, with a maximum
delay of 100 ms, will be deemed to be a “runaway gun” and will not be allowed on the field.


in German: if I have brought the marker into the ramp and let go of the trigger and it goes "pflopp" or "pflopp-pflopp", everything is fine. makes it "pflopp-pflopp-pflopp" is nothing good.
and now? everything stupid, incompetent, power-hungry wannabe marshalls in the region or what?
be happy that there are still a few "idiots" who stand there for a few euros for the whole day and do the job.

: bää:
I'm sorry that I will switch on again here, but I already had the "problem" myself:
A new LV1, Mille Mode in, three shots in ramping after the last trigger pull came out.
I wasn't allowed to go on the field (BZL!).
I went to OPM, explained the above, absolutely understandable.

What unfortunately many Marshalls do not understand (and after a really friendly discussion):
There are always 3 shots between the trigger pulls during ramping:
10.5shots / sec: 3.3 pulls / sec = 3.18shots / pull (basic math!)
The board can Not look into the future and know that I don't want to shoot anymore in 0.33sec. So there are still three more shots, so that any ramping is kept up.

Which brings us to "pflopp-pflopp-pflopp".

maani
Enlightened
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21.06.2016 11:10

acim81 wrote:
maani wrote:LoL.
everything is clearly regulated. Extract from wpbo rules: (edit: same passage in epbf rules)
“Runaway Guns” test - All markers will be checked for “runaway” triggers. The marker will be fired
rapidly. The testing judge, while rapidly firing the marker will suddenly cease to pull the trigger.
Any marker that fires more than 1 additional shot after the final trigger activation, with a maximum
delay of 100 ms, will be deemed to be a “runaway gun” and will not be allowed on the field.


in German: if I have brought the marker into the ramp and let go of the trigger and it goes "pflopp" or "pflopp-pflopp", everything is fine. makes it "pflopp-pflopp-pflopp" is nothing good.
and now? everything stupid, incompetent, power-hungry wannabe marshalls in the region or what?
be happy that there are still a few "idiots" who stand there for a few euros for the whole day and do the job.

: bää:
I'm sorry that I will switch on again here, but I already had the "problem" myself:
A new LV1, Mille Mode in, three shots in ramping after the last trigger pull came out.
I wasn't allowed to go on the field (BZL!).
I went to OPM, explained the above, absolutely understandable.

What unfortunately many Marshalls do not understand (and after a really friendly discussion):
There are always 3 shots between the trigger pulls during ramping:
10.5shots / sec: 3.3 pulls / sec = 3.18shots / pull (basic math!)
The board can Not look into the future and know that I don't want to shoot anymore in 0.33sec. So there are still three more shots, so that any ramping is kept up.

Which brings us to "pflopp-pflopp-pflopp".
Millennium Series ROF cap in 2009:

In a move to come closer to a world wide standard of rules and procedures and as discussed at the CPL / SPL team owners meeting in Amsterdam, the MS will adopt the same ROF cap (10bps) as used in the PSP. The rules will be updated shortly by the following wording of rule `` 10 .01 markers ''

- The first 3 shots must be semi-auto mode only.
- Markers will be limited to a ROF of 10 balls per second (in 2009 actually 10.5 bps), defined as no two consecutive shots may be timed shorter than 95ms apart (reading on ROF meter of 10.5 bps or less = legal; reading on ROF meter of 10.6 bps or higher = illegal).
- Ramping of shots will be allowed only once 5 bps has been achieved. Then the marker may ramp to 10 bps, but only as long as the 5 bps is continually maintained. Once the trigger is stopped to be activated, only one single additional shot may be discharged.

Clarification: the 5 bps for start / sustain ramping dose not need to be hit physically, it refers to the time delay between trigger activations, which must be at least the equivalent to 5 bps. So a marker may start to ramp up to 10 bps, if (after the first three shots being in semi-auto only) the time delay between 3rd and 4th trigger activation is less than 200ms.



==============
So again in plain language: a maximum of 10 balls per second are allowed. The 10.5 ensure that you are guaranteed to have 10 and no 9, but never 11.

the sustain is clearly on 5 !!! Are defined.

10/5 = 2 (basic math knowledge)

so ONE trigger pull in the ramp can NEVER trigger more than 2 bullets.

as you can see, the mille mod has been clearly defined since 2009.

tombola
Enlightened
Contribution

21.06.2016 11:20

Edit: Who was faster. No matter..

Nope. As we have learned above, the rule "Pflopp-Pflopp" results in a theoretically allowed value for sustain of 5, whereby the setting 4.2 should also work (which I haven't quite understood yet ...)

If the manufacturer's fixed mille mode does not have this value, you have to set this value in the ramp setup of the marker (if it has one, such as LV1).

Ideally, the manufacturer should also issue an update so that the mille mode is compliant again.


As an example, I'll mention the M2's mille mode for eyes. It wasn't right before the last update either. The M2 has no ramp setup, which is why you had to wait for the update.
Last changed by Tombola on 6/21/2016 11:50 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

acim81
Rec-Baller
Place of residence: Upper ornament
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21.06.2016 11:31

Ok, with the substain of 5 I can see that there are 2 balls per move.

But when it usually says:
"Once the trigger is stopped to be activated, only one single additional shot may be discharged"

Does that mean then
A: 1 shot after the "ramp cycle"
or
B: 1shot?
If it means 1 shot, then everyone follows.
For A it would be 3 because 2 are from the ramp cycle, and according to the rules, I am allowed to do one.

maani
Enlightened
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21.06.2016 11:48

acim81 wrote: Does that mean then
A: 1 shot after the "ramp cycle"
or
B: 1shot?
If it means 1 shot, then everyone follows.
At B it would be 3 because 2 are from the ramp cycle, and according to the rules, I am allowed to do one.
additional means additionally.
1 shot + 1 additional shot are 2 shots.

in ramp mode:
ONE trigger pull releases the ball activated by the trigger plus ONE additional ball. Not more.

tombola
Enlightened
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21.06.2016 11:57

Somewhere upstairs it says that 100ms may pass after the last trigger pull, and only THEN one more shot may come.

In practice this is 2 after the last pull.

In a way, the shot in the 100ms still counts to the trigger pull.

I think the rule is because the board and gun take a while to process the trigger signal.

maani
Enlightened
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21.06.2016 12:44

Tombola wrote:Somewhere upstairs it says that 100ms may pass after the last trigger pull, and only THEN one more shot may come.

In practice this is 2 after the last pull.

In a way, the shot in the 100ms still counts to the trigger pull.

I think the rule is because the board and gun take a while to process the trigger signal.
no, that's because the minimum time interval between 2 shots is 95ms. if you had less than 95ms the clock would show more than 10.5. board and gun are electric, and electricity is damn fast

KK3 # 12
Podbitch
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21.06.2016 14:02

In the end, however ... if a reff can't count, you are not allowed to play ... just like you are pulled out, because the marker definitely shoots more than 10.5 balls in the current game with the reason: "I hear that ... it's easy over it! "...... At the end measured and capped to 10.0 ... that's just how it is ....

Wheeler
Gunslinger
Place of residence: Cologne
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21.06.2016 14:17

KK3 # 12 wrote:In the end, however ... if a reff can't count, you are not allowed to play ... just like you are pulled out, because the marker definitely shoots more than 10.5 balls in the current game with the reason: "I hear that ... it's easy over it! "...... At the end measured and capped to 10.0 ... that's just how it is ....
Get someone else to do the job, repeat the reasoning, have the name given -> write an email to the league coordinator, CC to the DPL official, name horse and rider, hope that something will improve.

For the next year, think about where to put your money. There is grumbling and grumbling, and yet most people throw money around again next year. What is supposed to change there. Hit'em where it hurts! * hint hint *

maani
Enlightened
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21.06.2016 15:10

KK3 # 12 wrote:In the end, however ... if a reff can't count, you are not allowed to play ... just like you are pulled out, because the marker definitely shoots more than 10.5 balls in the current game with the reason: "I hear that ... it's easy over it! "...... At the end measured and capped to 10.0 ... that's just how it is ....
what nonsense. that's what chronys are for. as if you can hear whether the 10 or 11 balls. vlt ne guess. but no one can say for sure. I get plaque when I hear something like that ...

and if you can't count to 3, you shouldn't marshall. because as we all know, as a marshall you have to be able to count to 5! if 6 players from a team sneak onto the field again ^^

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